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Sep. 12th, 2010 | 03:37 pm

CHAT ANONYMOUSLY ABOUT STUFF: General Anon Meme


It is what all the cool memes are doing nowadays!

The only rule is, don't be a total passive-aggressive douche. This isn't the place to spew all your vitriolic unrequited blackrom feelings for other members of of our dear fandom--or if you can't resist, at least don't mention them by name, that shit is just a little too petty. If it gets out of hand I'll ban you so fast Karkat would be impressed.

Other than that, hop to it, anons. And TITLE YOUR THREADS it could get pretty confusing all up in here if you didn't!



PS, as one kind anon pointed out, if you want to see the comments in chronological order instead of thread format, put ?view=flat after html in the URL. Or click here, whatever.
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Comments {5509}

Re: The smell of slasher buttfury in the morning

from: anonymous
date: Jul. 21st, 2011 01:35 am (UTC)
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But, since there's only a few characters, it isn't exactly damning to the author if none of them are girls.

Except when it is, because as a result girls literally never get written.

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Re: The smell of slasher buttfury in the morning

from: anonymous
date: Jul. 21st, 2011 01:38 am (UTC)
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girls literally never get written.

You...are trolling, right?

Either that or you have never actually read any fanfiction in this fandom

right?

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THIS!

from: anonymous
date: Jul. 21st, 2011 01:39 am (UTC)
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Seriously, if slashers could just take that one moment's consideration where they're incorporating a dude character in their story, ask themselves "hey, could a girl work just as well in this role?", and then choose the girl, this wouldn't be a problem.

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Re: THIS!

from: anonymous
date: Jul. 21st, 2011 02:49 am (UTC)
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TBH, I would say this isn't even quite the problem. The problem isn't just that the girl characters' screentime gets downgraded to nonexistence, it's that their emotional importance to the boy characters gets downgraded too.

Since JohnKat seems to be the major point of contention as of late, let's take the fanon perpetuated by shippers that Karkat has all the self-worth of a dog turd - which is true - and John is the only one who can ~accept~ him and his mutant blood and make him see how much he means to him even if he doesn't mean anything to anyone else - which is so not true. Where is Terezi, who fucking loves Karkat for so much more than just his candy blood? Where is Kanaya, who's able to get past the ragebarrel exterior and even temper his seething hate for everything? Hell, where's Sollux, who puts up with all the shit KK slings and then some? Karkat has so many people, girls and boys both, who care about him, and JohnKat shippers want to completely negate that so Karkat can wallow in manpain and John can take him into his arms and kiss the tears away.

It's a lot of convoluted OOC bullshit concocted specifically to wipe out the girls and make room for yaoi whitecock.

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Re: THIS!

from: anonymous
date: Jul. 21st, 2011 03:02 am (UTC)
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How much John/Karkat do you read? Because I read a good bit of it and I hardly ever see anything about John being the only one to accept him or his blood color. Blood color is brought up occasionally but it's typically from Karkat's POV and, let's face it, he still rips on himself in canon even after everyone already knows and doesn't seem to care much.

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Re: THIS!

from: anonymous
date: Jul. 21st, 2011 04:15 am (UTC)
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Saying it's specifically a blood color issue isn't accurate, but at the same time Karkat usually has issues about something and it's only John that's there for him. Or sometimes John with Karkat there for him. And when there is a support character it's mostly Sollux or Dave.

It's not really far to complain about JohnKat in particular, since other slash ships *coughtavroscough* are even worse about it. But it does mean that erasing his friendships with other characters, especially girls, and it is a lot of where the slash-is-OOC thing comes from.

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Re: THIS!

from: anonymous
date: Jul. 21st, 2011 04:29 am (UTC)
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NA -- that's fair enough. I don't mind the ~only the other half of the ship is there for him~ thing because that's a pretty popular trope in any ship fic. But yeah, ignoring the female characters when they're just as relevant as support characters is a problem.

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Re: THIS!

from: anonymous
date: Jul. 31st, 2011 02:01 am (UTC)
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I think you have two problems here.

1) slash
2) ooc fics

Certainly these things are not mutually exclusive but they aren't mutually inclusive, either. You can have slash fics that are not out of character.

I'm absolutely with you 100% on hating out of character fics. I would be disgusted if I read a John/Karkat fic that went like that. I would also be disgusted by a het fic that went similarly. Or a femmeslash fic.

If I were going to write your closing sentence over again, I would reword it though:

"It's a lot of convoluted OOC bullshit concocted specifically to make the characters behave the way you want them to."

Because I think John/Karkat can exist without erasing any female characters. I think it can exist without being ooc. Does that mean everyone writes it that way? Sadly, no. But that could be said for any pairing.

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Re: THIS!

from: anonymous
date: Jul. 31st, 2011 02:06 am (UTC)
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the point -> .










your head.

People are complaining about the fact the way people want the character to behave is to forget all their XX friends and have OOC buttsex. It isn't that John/Karkat is always OOC or that it's impossible to do unless all the girls are removed. It's that people choose to do both in a lot of cases.

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Re: The smell of slasher buttfury in the morning

from: anonymous
date: Jul. 21st, 2011 01:54 am (UTC)
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Except they are written. Really, it's not that hard to find. Do you even read slash fic at all?

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The Jenniführer

Re: The smell of slasher buttfury in the morning

from: cephiedvariable
date: Jul. 21st, 2011 12:02 pm (UTC)
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Okay just stepping in to note that the kink meme is not all of fandom or even the center of fandom. It's popular, yes, but no more so than AO3 and tumblr. You can't just troll through the kinkmeme (which has a lot of quality, I admit, but is often lowest common denominator due to the nature of it's function) and be like: "THIS REPRESENTS ALL OF FANDOM 100% TRUE REALITY."

If you line up the most popular John/Karkat fics in the fandom - urbanAnchorite's stuff, half_life_wolf, Promstuck, Never Trust A Troll, Mostly Harmless - or look at the really popular artists like shelby or geromy or shatterstag or owlpellets or inverts you find stories in which the girls appear in large roles as well as fans who adore the girls and draw/write them pretty frequently.

There is a subset of Homestuck fandom that is only concerned with slash/male characters and there are quite a few John/Karkat shippers in that leg of fandom. But there are also Dave/John, Dave/Tavros, Gamzee/Tavros and Sollux/Eridan shippers ect. and none of them ever get the shit that the John/Karkat fans do, esp. since most of the John/Karkat fans who actually get shit are the ones who hang out in the main part of fandom and write/draw/love the girls. The slash only fans are off in their own little corner doing their only little thing and never have to deal with these complaints or this stigma.

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Re: The smell of slasher buttfury in the morning

from: anonymous
date: Jul. 21st, 2011 12:30 pm (UTC)
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Yeah I've been having a bit of cognitive dissonance between this thread and what I've seen of John/Karkat fans on Tumblr and AO3. I'm usually prone to being one of those lady-centric fans who suspects slashers of hating on female characters but this has been blatantly untrue of most of the John/Karkat shippers I've encountered. (Who may or may not be representative, but still)

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Dab-Dab says I'm very untidy

Re: The smell of slasher buttfury in the morning

from: ormery
date: Jul. 21st, 2011 12:49 pm (UTC)
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YEAH BASICALLY

I kept thinking, reading these threads – if these folks are so vehemently unfond of John/Karkat it seems profoundly unlikely that they have read more John/Karkat than I have? AND YET THEY SEEM TO HAVE SEEN SO MUCH STUFF THAT I HAVEN'T.........

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Re: The smell of slasher buttfury in the morning

from: anonymous
date: Jul. 21st, 2011 03:03 pm (UTC)
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Go look at page 11.

Also for the record, I fucking hate Gamzee/Tavros and I'm far from the only one. It's come up on this meme before even.

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Re: The smell of slasher buttfury in the morning

from: anonymous
date: Jul. 21st, 2011 03:17 pm (UTC)
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I think people are focusing so much on John/Karkat not because it's THE plague ship, but because it's emblematic of the plague. John/Karkat is easy to point fingers at because (1) it's the juggernaut slash ship, (2) it's male protag/male protag which is the recipe for white cock no matter how you slice it, and (3) while its problematic elements are not as exaggerated as in many of the other slash ships, it does have them. (And (4) John is canonically not a homosexual.)

Slash in general is the problem. John/Karkat just puts itself out there as the most readily available target.

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Re: The smell of slasher buttfury in the morning

from: anonymous
date: Jul. 21st, 2011 03:50 pm (UTC)
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So it's inherently bad and wrong to ship privledged people (white males) together, regardless of whether it's a canonical/plausible ship or not. Okay, got it.

Have fun waging war on something that's been a cornerstone of female fandom since the 1960's and Star Trek. Maybe you should try fighting forms of sexism that are actually hurting people in real life?

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Re: The smell of slasher buttfury in the morning

from: anonymous
date: Jul. 21st, 2011 03:55 pm (UTC)
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fandom is divorced from real life
erasing female characters and female relationships isn't hurtful to queer women
the fact that girls are doing it protects it from criticism


welp here's your bingo, it's been a long time in the coming. Have fun being willfully ignorant and part of the problem

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Re: The smell of slasher buttfury in the morning

from: anonymous
date: Jul. 21st, 2011 03:57 pm (UTC)
Link

It becomes inherently wrong when you generally favor those people to the exclusion of everyone else. Also, what the fuck, Star Trek? You mean the one that had those female fans calling Uhura every slur they could think of? That one? Yes, it fucking matters.

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The Jenniführer

Re: The smell of slasher buttfury in the morning

from: cephiedvariable
date: Jul. 21st, 2011 04:37 pm (UTC)
Link

Slash in general is the problem.

Slash in general is the problem.

Slash in general is the problem.

Slash in general is the problem.

Slash in general is the problem.


Okay, are you serious? There is a certain problematic mindset that goes on within subsets of the slash community that I'm quite familiar with, but that does not mean the very act of slashing male characters itself is inherently problematic. The misogyny that goes on in slash circles is very similar to the bullshit that goes on in het circles as well (in other fandoms at least).

But you're also missing my point which is that these complaints and this paternalistic "but dear don't you understand shipping two boys together helps the patriarchy because some fans behave very very badly" attitude is rarely even lobbied against the people who actually do behave badly. The reason a lot of John/Karkat shippers complain is because it's mostly the ones who ship het, ship femmeslash and like the girls who get the brunt of all this anti-popular ship backlash wrapped up in feminist critique and they get annoyed because they're being judged on implicitly moral grounds for things they aren't actually doing.

And it is just popular ship backlash otherwise people would be complaining more about all the graphic revenge fantasies Gamzee/Tavros fans used to come up with re: Vriska or that a lot of Dave/John writers don't seem to realize Rose and Jade exist (up to the author of their most popular fic admitting that she doesn't like them) or that there are Eridan/Sollux fans who hate Feferi desperately despite the fact that their entire ship hinges on her existence. I never see anyone talking about that shit when discussions about the HS slash fandom comes up except briefly in passing because everyone's more interested in being buttmad about John/Karkat even daring to exist like it's so unusual for a "most popular" ship to emerge in fandom.

My point was that it is not morally bad to slash and it's not morally bad to like John/Karkat and the "problem" of the female characters being erased or bashed in fic and art is not the fault of the people who usually end up on the receiving end of discussions like this. If you want to discuss the problems in the Homestuck slash community, then discuss them. I'm not a terribly big fan of it myself. But at least identify what the actual problem is. :/

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Re: The smell of slasher buttfury in the morning

from: anonymous
date: Jul. 21st, 2011 04:58 pm (UTC)
Link

Why are you making this about the fans and their ~attitudes? The fact is that slash gets written more than het and vastly more than femslash, boys get written vastly more than girls, and that is inherently problematic no matter what else you ~ship and conveniently don't produce any material for, considering that seems to be the trend among JohnKat shippers anyway.

otherwise people would be complaining more about all the graphic revenge fantasies Gamzee/Tavros fans used to come up with re: Vriska

1) Why do you assume attitudes like that are solely the fault of Gamz/Tav shippers? Vriska-centered misogyny is endemic among all demographics of the fandom. Gamz/Tav is problematic, yes, but for many other reasons than that (erasure of Tav's female friendships, fetishization of Tavros' disability and supposed helplessness, et cetera).
2) Why do you assume the people griping about slash right now have not complained about this issue? A Vriska thread comes up nearly every page of this meme (more than one, even), and people have consistently voiced dissatisfaction with the way she is treated by the whole of fandom (again, not just Gamz/Tav people).

Dave/John writers don't seem to realize Rose and Jade exist (up to the author of their most popular fic admitting that she doesn't like them) or that there are Eridan/Sollux fans who hate Feferi desperately despite the fact that their entire ship hinges on her existence

... except that this is exactly the issue we are discussing as it applies to JohnKat and other slash ships. Can you even read? And yes, Feferi bashing IS an issue that has been addressed on this meme. Just because we're not derailing this into about The Issues You Want To Talk About doesn't make this discussion invalid.

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The Jenniführer

Re: The smell of slasher buttfury in the morning

from: cephiedvariable
date: Jul. 21st, 2011 05:28 pm (UTC)
Link

I have read through a lot of this meme and respond anon pretty frequently so I'm aware of the discussions that go on here and while what you've said is true, the vast majority of the criticism and tooth-gnashing lately has been directed solely at John/Karkat.

The point of this thread was: why do John/Karkat shippers complain about the hate they get lololol they are the most popular pairing and also they deserve it for their shitty sexist pairing lololol

And I was trying to explain that the reason they get upset is because accusations like the ones in this thread do not apply to the mainstream of John/Karkat shippers who most certainly do produce fanworks about the female characters considering John/Karkat is also really popular among het and femmeslash fans but the mainstream are the ones who get all the nasty backtalking about it. No one takes this shit to the door of people who write creepy, Vriska-hating, yaoi-seme-Karkat fills on the kinkmeme. They whine about Shelby not liking their pairings.

You took my points individually and interpreted them as an attempt to derail when I was actually only trying to point out that there is a very large part of the Homestuck fandom that is not at all girl-inclusive. The problem with John/Karkat is that it has a foot in both worlds: the sexist slashers love it, but so do a lot of other people who have nothing to do with the problematic trend we're talking about here. Using it as shorthand for the ~*~prime example of problematic pairings~*~ when its popularity is partly due to the fact that it appeals to everyone is intellectually dishonest.

I find these conversations incredibly frustrating because while I agree with a lot of the issues re: the sudden surge in nonsensical m/m pairings and the lack of femmeships that aren't Rose/Kanaya and the sexism in parts of the slash community, there seems to be this oddly willful ignorance here about the actual composition of the Homestuck fandom and what people actually ship/write/draw in it. Either that, or people here actually do only read the kinkmeme. In which case, I would suggest you stop reading the kinkmeme because it's making you miserable.

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Re: The smell of slasher buttfury in the morning

from: anonymous
date: Jul. 21st, 2011 04:46 pm (UTC)
Link

there we go ladies and gents it has come full circle, slash is now problematic no matter what other ships you ship simultaneously

and if you're the same anon for above cavilling for hetero ships because it 'empowers' the female character you are sounding way too close to GET ALL THIS HOMO OUT OF MY EYES esp with your 'john is no homosexual'

unless you're the type who wrote three hundred words of femslash once where two female characters bloodlessly held hands and felt SO ALT just look at all this brutal f/f where nobody fucks because god damn most types i've ever seen use the word 'whitecock' have never written anything with two girls together that didn't read like they were doing it out of sheer smugass martyrdom

guy/guy not necessarily a recipe for white cock in a fandom that gives equal weight to the bookend moirail ship of kanaya<>karkat and if they dump all karkat's friendships they're generally not good writers anyway, so why are you judging this ship by its lowest common denominator rather than the stuff touted as good examples of the pairing? because it's that that's the measure of a fandom, not its dreck.

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Re: The smell of slasher buttfury in the morning

from: anonymous
date: Jul. 21st, 2011 04:56 pm (UTC)
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because god damn most types i've ever seen use the word 'whitecock' have never written anything with two girls together that didn't read like they were doing it out of sheer smugass martyrdom

inorite

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Re: The smell of slasher buttfury in the morning

from: anonymous
date: Jul. 21st, 2011 11:26 pm (UTC)
Link

Ceph this is an anon meme. You are supposed to be anon. When people do what you are doing, especially if they are a big name like you are, it kind of comes across like they are throwing their weight around. I know that is not your intention but it still irks.

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The Jenniführer

Re: The smell of slasher buttfury in the morning

from: cephiedvariable
date: Jul. 22nd, 2011 12:33 am (UTC)
Link

Sorry. It certainly wasn't my intent. I'm uncomfortable carrying on arguments like this anon for various reasons that are difficult to explain and probably mean I shouldn't bother in the first place. If anything, I figure saying stuff publicly damages my rep more than sways people to my opinion so I didn't really think anything of it. I apologize for my terrible etiquette and will keep my opinions anon in the future.

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