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Sep. 12th, 2010 | 03:37 pm

CHAT ANONYMOUSLY ABOUT STUFF: General Anon Meme


It is what all the cool memes are doing nowadays!

The only rule is, don't be a total passive-aggressive douche. This isn't the place to spew all your vitriolic unrequited blackrom feelings for other members of of our dear fandom--or if you can't resist, at least don't mention them by name, that shit is just a little too petty. If it gets out of hand I'll ban you so fast Karkat would be impressed.

Other than that, hop to it, anons. And TITLE YOUR THREADS it could get pretty confusing all up in here if you didn't!



PS, as one kind anon pointed out, if you want to see the comments in chronological order instead of thread format, put ?view=flat after html in the URL. Or click here, whatever.
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Comments {5514}

Re: The smell of slasher buttfury in the morning

from: anonymous
date: Jul. 21st, 2011 01:55 am (UTC)
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How true, anon. I guess we should never say anything because girls are so delicate and will be crushed if we do anything to smother the fragile blossom that is yaoi.

Instead the other girls complaining should STFU about people saying/writing sexist shit about how girls don't count or are evil harpies or sluts.

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Re: The smell of slasher buttfury in the morning

from: anonymous
date: Jul. 21st, 2011 02:36 am (UTC)
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Ooooor they could write their own het and femslash and put some effort into evening out the imbalance instead of soiling their trousers over how misogynist and hateful and Wrong those other girls are?

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Re: The smell of slasher buttfury in the morning

from: anonymous
date: Jul. 21st, 2011 02:50 am (UTC)
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because obviously none of us are and pointing out something means you can't do anything else

why don't you go write more of your definitely issue free slash instead of soiling your trousers over how wrong we are to say stuff?

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Re: The smell of slasher buttfury in the morning

from: anonymous
date: Jul. 21st, 2011 02:53 am (UTC)
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Why don't you stop ripping on girls for writing what they want to write?

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Re: The smell of slasher buttfury in the morning

from: anonymous
date: Jul. 21st, 2011 03:11 am (UTC)
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Because what they want to write has a lot of issues and I'm not going to stop ripping on anybody for that kind of thing, so why would I care they're girls?

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Re: The smell of slasher buttfury in the morning

from: anonymous
date: Jul. 21st, 2011 03:15 am (UTC)
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Because it plays into huge histories of shaming women over their sexual choices and it honestly says a hell of a lot that even "feminists" feel this driving need to police what other women enjoy?

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Re: The smell of slasher buttfury in the morning

from: anonymous
date: Jul. 21st, 2011 04:07 am (UTC)
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Find me where people said women shouldn't write porn they enjoy. I'm pretty sure this came up earlier in the thread and it was the exact opposite, and then people wanked about how slash wasn't written by women and therefore must be fair game by your count anyway and now here we are.

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Re: The smell of slasher buttfury in the morning

from: anonymous
date: Jul. 21st, 2011 04:26 am (UTC)
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NA

So they're only allowed to write porn that they enjoy? Not slash without any sex in it because that's too problematic?

That's still kind of policing what women are allowed to enjoy.

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Re: The smell of slasher buttfury in the morning

from: anonymous
date: Jul. 21st, 2011 04:34 am (UTC)
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They're allowed to write whatever they want. And I'm allowed not like it. Writing while female doesn't mean you get a sparkly no-criticism pass.

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Re: The smell of slasher buttfury in the morning

from: anonymous
date: Jul. 21st, 2011 05:34 am (UTC)
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The point at which you remove the sex from it is the point at which I stop respecting claims it's about sex. If your enjoyment of two characters running around doing nonsexual things is ruined if one or both are girls, that's misogyny, not a kink.

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Re: The smell of slasher buttfury in the morning

from: anonymous
date: Jul. 21st, 2011 02:29 pm (UTC)
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DA

I skimmed this argument, but this seems to be a point I can pick up.

What if my enjoyment isn't ruined if one or both are girls? What if I ship, for example, John/Karkat, John/Vriska, Karkat/Terezi, and Vriska/Terezi?

I'm honestly not trying to get under your skin, anon, but this is something I I wonder each and every time these arguments pop up.

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Re: The smell of slasher buttfury in the morning

from: anonymous
date: Jul. 21st, 2011 03:01 pm (UTC)
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Then you aren't one of the people who only readings about boys because that's your preference/kink/fetish, which is what AIRT is talking about in this conversation.

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Re: The smell of slasher buttfury in the morning

from: anonymous
date: Jul. 21st, 2011 03:31 pm (UTC)
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But why should it be anyone's buisness (outside of a kink meme) if exclusive boy-on-boy is someone's preference/kink/fetish? I don't see the personal appeal of it, but I don't see the apeal of alot of kinks, and I haven't been telling noncon readers or incest fans or furries that their kink is wrong and they should stop.

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Re: The smell of slasher buttfury in the morning

from: anonymous
date: Jul. 21st, 2011 03:37 pm (UTC)
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Because kinks don't exist divorced from social context and if people are favoring dudes en masse that is symptomatic of some really shitty sexism.

Are you dense?

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Re: The smell of slasher buttfury in the morning

from: anonymous
date: Jul. 21st, 2011 03:44 pm (UTC)
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captchalogue.livejournal.com/938.html?thread=1444010#t1444010

"See, I would actually be totally fine if this was restricted to PWP fic. If ladies want to write about boys fucking, then go for it. But most of the slash is not PWP. It is just boys. All boys, all the time. There is a fuckton of John/Karkat out there that has no fucking in it."

We have been over this, anon.

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Re: The smell of slasher buttfury in the morning

from: anonymous
date: Jul. 31st, 2011 01:45 am (UTC)
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So what if it's someone's preference, kink or fetish?

That's like saying I shouldn't like my girlfriend to fuck me with a strap on and only a strap on because you don't like that fetish. It's none of your damn business and it doesn't concern or affect you if someone likes slash and only slash.

Slash writers haven't made the girls actually disappear and they haven't stopped you from enjoying what you like. You don't like slash? That's wonderful! Go read het. Go read femslash. Go read genfic. That's all perfectly normal and healthy. So is slash. Just because someone doesn't write about the characters you like doesn't mean you can't find someone else who wrote about the characters you like. Request the stuff you like on memes! Write the stuff you like! Read exclusively the stuff you like.

I could just as easily be a complete jackass and assume that you avoid reading boy only fics because you're homophobic. But I'm not going to make that assumption because I don't know you. And you know what else? I don't care what you like and it doesn't hurt me if you don't like the same things I like.

tl;dr: It's none of your business if people want to read only fics about boys. It doesn't hurt you and no one's forcing you to read fic you don't like.

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Re: The smell of slasher buttfury in the morning

from: anonymous
date: Jul. 31st, 2011 02:14 am (UTC)
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If your "preference" is that the very existence of women is disgusting, you're a bigot. If this was about how it's fine to remove all the non-Aryan friends of the two blonds you want fucking because ~it's your kink~, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Bigotry might be a kink but I don't give a fuck.

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Re: The smell of slasher buttfury in the morning

from: anonymous
date: Jul. 21st, 2011 03:10 pm (UTC)
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Didn't you know, anon? People who can accept the same character in more than one ship are like unicorns and fairies and magic, and slashers who also hetship and femslash the characters in their ships are even MORE imaginary!!!1 Because slash is always, ALWAYS a sign of internalized sexism! Also, all shippers are batshit cracy OTP fanatics who viciously trash anyone who ships a different ship. Always. Even in a fandom where a disporportionate number of characters are canonically stated to be, from a human perspective, polygamists.

...yea, I just ship whoever I think has interesting relationships, regardless of their gender. I personally love the canon interactions of all the relationships you mentioned up there, and indulge in shipfic/shipart of all four, I guess I'm in the same boat as you. The SS. Imaginary Rainbow Unicorn.

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Re: The smell of slasher buttfury in the morning

from: anonymous
date: Jul. 21st, 2011 03:22 pm (UTC)
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Thing is, if you don't actually write about ships that aren't slash, the things you ship in your own head cloud land are irrelevant. And you do look like a shallow slasher, specifically because you are contributing to the problem.

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Re: The smell of slasher buttfury in the morning

from: anonymous
date: Jul. 21st, 2011 04:22 pm (UTC)
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I don't write ANY ships, gay or straight or lesbian, because I know I'm a terrible writer who is about as good at potraying romance as a dead fish is at swimming. How does that make me shallow, or exlusively a "slasher" and not just a generalist "shipper"? You seem to be assuming an awful lot about my fandom habits.

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Re: The smell of slasher buttfury in the morning

from: anonymous
date: Jul. 31st, 2011 09:47 am (UTC)
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But shipping doesn't mean all fucking, all the time. If women ship two male characters sexually and read/write porn of them, there's a very good chance they will also come to ship them in a fluffier/sillier/whatever romantic light and want to write/read/see more stuff of them being buddies and not boning all the time, all day, every day.

It's kind of gross to be saying "oh, it's absolutely fine if girls want to read/write porn of gay guys BUT AS SOON AS IT'S NOT 100% SMUT IT IS SEXISM!" Shipping isn't only porn; writing characters in a gay relationship isn't always going to be NC-17.

There's a problem with sexism and internalized misogyny in the fandom overall, yes, I would never argue with that. However, shaming individual fans for their fic choices by assuming things about them? That skeeves me out every time I see it.

What if someone is only writing John/Karkat, and nothing else, because yes they ship other things as well as that but don't have any grasp on how to write other characters besides John, Karkat, and maybe Tavros, they don't ship Tavros with John or Karkat, and they prefer writing pairing fic to gen fic? What if someone ships Karkat/Terezi but doesn't think they can portray the dynamic they have correctly? What if someone ships Terezi/Vriska but knows they're no good at writing pairing fic that isn't fluffy and ~loving, and can't imagine writing those two in that way? What if someone isn't comfortable writing girls because they're afraid they'll unintentionally turn them into cliches, or self-insert too much, because they're aware that they have some internalized sexism and think (or know) that means they can't write girls well?

The few times I do write, I write slash, and it took me a long time to realize and come to terms with the fact that it is in a large part about exploring my sexuality and identity. Not about sex; it's definitely not always porn. But you know what? I'm genderqueer, FAAB, and -- to make things less complicated let's call me a lesbian even if that doesn't quite fit. I've written femslash (usually genderbending stuff, partly because I'm genderqueer and like stuff like that, partly because the only characters I feel capable of writing are from the Intermission and that's 99% cocks), but it's never going to see the light of the Internet, because I feel too... exposed is the only good word. I feel like I'm giving too much away about my likes and preferences, my personal kinks, that the sex especially is too personal when it's two girls. I don't have quite as much problem with het, but you know what? I want to write about gay relationships. I also really enjoy writing from the POV of a guy, because I don't really get to present as male often (read: at all) IRL so it's nice to have an outlet for that sort of thing. If the Internet ever sees my shit, it's more likely to be het than femslash, and way more likely to be slash than het, because of my personal comfort levels and what gives me contentment to write.

So, no. I don't appreciate being told I'm OMG PART OF THE PROBLEM. There is a problem, and it deserves to be talked about, but making sweeping generalizations about every slasher/everyone who ships XY is obnoxious and can be hurtful. "Slash is the problem" and "it'd be great if everyone just stopped writing slash" and "XY sucks and everyone who ships it is just in it for the OOC buttsex" are shitty things to say, because I'm queer and so are other fans and this is our playground too.

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Re: The smell of slasher buttfury in the morning

from: anonymous
date: Jul. 31st, 2011 01:43 pm (UTC)
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No, what's gross is how people try to derail the conversation by saying "but if that's true I'm doing something wrong and if you say I'm doing something wrong it'll hurt my feelings because I care so much about how important this is!"

What if someone is only writing John/Karkat, and nothing else, because yes they ship other things as well as that but don't have any grasp on how to write other characters besides John, Karkat, and maybe Tavros, they don't ship Tavros with John or Karkat, and they prefer writing pairing fic to gen fic? What if someone ships Karkat/Terezi but doesn't think they can portray the dynamic they have correctly? What if someone ships Terezi/Vriska but knows they're no good at writing pairing fic that isn't fluffy and ~loving, and can't imagine writing those two in that way? What if someone isn't comfortable writing girls because they're afraid they'll unintentionally turn them into cliches, or self-insert too much, because they're aware that they have some internalized sexism and think (or know) that means they can't write girls well?</>

Then they're sexist. It doesn't matter what flavor of excuse it is. People aren't going to be good at writing every character type, but when the type of character they can't write is "female", that's sexism. People aren't good at writing every relationship type, but when the type they can't write is "with a girl in it", that's sexism. And the same for when people can't write a character because they're just so scared of screwing it up when that doesn't hold them back when writing crappy sexist OOC slash, or crappy sexist OOC male focused het and gen. It's just an excuse.

This discussion hasn't been about shaming an individual person. People have looked at the broad things said, realized they're doing it, and then cried it's too specific because it's actually pointing out problems instead of saying that there's some sexism somewhere but let's stop and not talk about where or why.

If you don't write about girls, then you're not being forced to, but yes, there is something wrong that you don't want to or can't write girls. That's what wrong means. Even your explanation boils down to that you find something wrong about writing girls.

If you think the sexism and internalized misogyny in fiction are a problem, then problems are things that should be dealt with, that have solutions. If you aren't interested in identifying or fixing them and would rather just not think about these things, then you don't care. You're not obligated to, but it'd be nice if you wouldn't concern-troll the discussion of people who do care.

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Re: The smell of slasher buttfury in the morning

from: anonymous
date: Aug. 3rd, 2011 03:54 pm (UTC)
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Are you fucking kidding me.

Look, I was trying to be reasonable. But you didn't read or even try to comprehend any single example I gave.

People aren't going to be good at writing every character type, but when the type of character they can't write is "female", that's sexism.

Being able to write three characters out of, at last count, 40+, doesn't mean "lol the character type they can't write is FEMALE!!!" even if none of those three are girls. Is this hard to understand? Hey, someone is good at writing someone who's really angry all the time, someone who has self-esteem issues, and the "stoner" type of character. Guess who falls into those character types? None of the girls. Wow, see how that works?

Also, "hey I ship this really awesome het/femslash ship and I don't think I could properly portray THAT SPECIFIC SHIP" is a far cry from "oh no I can't write relationships with girls in them EVER.

Also also, gotta love how you have no argument for that last part so you just resort to assuming that anyone not writing the girls because they think they'll screw it up are automatically writing things that are crappy, OOC, and sexist. Just because a girl isn't the focus. Well okay then.

The thing you don't seem to realize? Yeah, sweeping generalizations about THIS IS WHAT FANS OF THIS PAIRING ARE LIKE, or THIS IS WHAT ALL SLASHERS ARE LIKE are in fact attempts at shaming individual people. Because you know what? Those groups are made up of individual people. There are ways this discussion can be held, and it fucking SHOULD BE HELD and no one is telling you it shouldn't be, that aren't insulting every person who writes specific pairings/every person who ever writes m/m. There's no "solution" in acting better-than-thou by pointing at everyone who doesn't write the things you want them to -- or, apparently just as bad in some people's eyes, doesn't write them exclusively -- and going LOOK AT WHAT YOU'RE DOING YOU BAD SEXIST PEOPLE SHAME ON YOU. You're thinking that will help fix... what, exactly?

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Re: The smell of slasher buttfury in the morning

from: anonymous
date: Aug. 3rd, 2011 03:58 pm (UTC)
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People have looked at the broad things said, realized they're doing it, and then cried it's too specific

Except you're the one saying that they're doing it. Maybe it's a case of people, you know, being fuckasses by going OMG JOHN/KARKAT SHIPPERS ERASE THE GIRLS BY DEFAULT, ALL OF THEM, then when people show up and go "actually, here are people and specific fics that include John/Karkat but also have other pairings, both het and femslash, and include a lot of the female characters, and they're pretty popular too!" turning around and going BUT IT HAS JOHN/KARKAT IN IT AND SEXIST FICS OF THAT PAIRING EXIST AND ALSO YOU'RE STILL A PART OF THE PROBLEM FOR INCLUDING JOHN/KARKAT AT ALL.

But it's good to know that I am just a sexist concern-troll, seeing as how I'm actually worried about the people being attacked over this, and also have the gall to explore my fucking gender identity through fic -- but then again, it's only okay for straight girls to explore their sexual identity through slash. Maybe. If y'all are feeling generous.

I'm starting to get the impression that 99% of the people in these ~caring discussions~ are able-bodied cis girls. I'd actually like to believe that most of you are able-bodied cis straight girls trying to get ally points for sticking up for the lesbians on top of everything else, simply because I'd hope more lesbians and bisexuals would see the problem in some of the arguments flying around here, but my faith in humanity's dipping lower as we speak.

If you don't write about girls, then you're not being forced to, but yes, there is something wrong that you don't want to or can't write girls. That's what wrong means. Even your explanation boils down to that you find something wrong about writing girls.

Wow, you didn't read anything I said at all did you. Maybe just enough to realize that I disagreed with you? What part of "hey, I prefer to write relationships over gen, and I want to write queer relationships, but I feel too exposed when I write femslash so I'm probably never going to put it online, so most things people would see from me would be slash -- especially since I am genderqueer and I like getting the chance to step into the POV of a guy during my pretendy funtimes because I can't fucking do it in real life" read as "I find something wrong with writing girls and don't want to/can't do it"? I mean I realize my attempt at showing you that attacking a whole bunch of fans and making assumptions about all of them them is potentially hurtful for the ones who don't fall into your "OOC slash-obsessed cis girls who just ignore the female characters all the time" bracket went right over your head, there, but I'm just a little baffled at how you can miss the point by such a wide margin and manage to do it in such an offensive way.

"Slash is the problem" and "it'd be great if everyone just stopped writing slash" and "XY sucks and everyone who ships it is just in it for the OOC buttsex" are shitty things to say

Also, any plans on addressing that part? Like stating how these are identifying actual problems, or suggesting any sort of solution or trying to fix anything? I mean, it'd be great if you'd specify.

Yeah, I fucking mad. I will continue to be mad as long as people fighting the good fight against sexism and misogyny keep also being horrendous allies when it comes to pretty much everything else. Which a good chunk of you are doing right now, and which is the only thing most people are protesting to, despite your martyr's stance about how you guys are the only ones who really care.

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Re: The smell of slasher buttfury in the morning

from: anonymous
date: Aug. 14th, 2011 09:15 pm (UTC)
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i'm over a week late, but this post is amazing

not sarcastically, i appreciate it enough to post in this horrible thread just to tell you so in case you check back. this and the post you made before it, both are evidently written by someone with a solid reasonable mind who understands how to hold an argument.

as a cisgendered straight woman, i will never be able to know your experience on a subjective level and i don't want to cheapen it by comparing it to mine, so instead i'm just stating that i'm really glad to have read it and would like to thank you for sharing it

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