Mayor of Meme Town - ==>

Oh, possibly.

But I find if you examine why people say they like writing about men, you'll find people tend to be justifying what they're already doing, not really giving an explanation.

For example, men who are romantically and sexually attracted to women mostly read about men. In fandom, many lesbians mostly write about men. Bisexuals of both genders mostly write about men. Men and women who write het more often write it from the POV of the male character. People will give many contradicting explanations that always explain why it's natural to write men. Some of them are definitely true, but not all of them, just as there's nothing wrong with writing about men but there is something wrong when people overwhelmingly write about men.

They're trolling, guys.

It's probably Vex's fangirl/sockpuppet again.

Wow, um, I'm hoping you're a troll because telling a woman that they way her sexuality works is sick and morally wrong is kind of a huge step backwards.

No.

I'm freezing this thread because it's going to go nowhere but downhill. Sorry to anyone who actually wanted to discuss this in a sane sort of way, but this topic has gone bad places in the past and it will go bad places now.

can't you just freeze the bad subthread?

If you really want to read this, we've had a much longer thread on the same subject before (that thread is also a good example of why I froze this one). It's been talked to death, yet no conclusion has been reached because people come in with preconcieved notions, bias and unwillingness to compromise, and every viewpoint has a tendency to get very defensive over it. Male dominance in media is an interesting subject but I'm fairly certain Captchalogue's anonymous atmosphere is not a good venue for its discussion. I might have been more forgiving if it was earlier in the day when I could watch it like a hawk for incoming jackassery, but I can't do that at the moment.

Also only freezing the bad subthread leaves the topic ripe and open for further trolling.

Again, I'm sorry, but I'm not going to unfreeze this thread.

You know, maybe it's weird but I don't have any problem with Slick/Droog even though plenty of that seems like rivalslash too. Maybe I'd be more bothered if it was more popular, but it seems more...grounded and about the characters, not the dicks.

FOUR QUADRANTS + FRIENDSHIP

There is no reason why you have to completely eliminate rival pairings. Especially when you're shipping redrom or blackrom of a character who's got blackrom or redrom hints with someone else.

And you can write Kanaya and Karkat hanging out without it having to be some form of romance. That does for everyone really.

Co-signed! He is generally very passive, but he draws his lines where he needs to - 'You cannot do it, you cannot kiss the girl', refusing to let Vriska bully him into apologising for being disabled, and finally trying to fight her. Not to mention the sheer fact that he can still be a nice guy and focus on the good things after everything that was done to him.

Between Kanaya's Word of God lesbianism and the fact we don't seem to see her doing much auspiticizing for either Tavros or Eridan, I think it makes more sense to think she was involved in both because of Vriska.
There is a hint that she was invested in Tavros's well-being beyond Vriska's immediate involvement, though, since she's the one who told him that he could give his self-esteem a name. Canon implies she was messing with him about that, but it does also imply that she was willing to speak to him about his problems in general.

But neither is that auspiticizing behavior. It's just friendship. If she was trying to mediate his and Vriska's relationship she should have been encouraging him to be even more of the doormat and hope that Vriska, like a bear, would leave him along if he played dead long enough.

Thinking of it as 2 + fleeting third wheel makes a lot of sense. Canon says that the trolls believe there is a 'perfect triad' waiting out there for them, but that doesn't make practical sense. It undermines the fated aspect of kismesissitude, too, if you can have a single other person who you'd hate-date the instant somebody else got out of your way. Canon also implies that it's a slightly less set quadrant anyway, with saying that black infidelities are so common.

One thing to consider is whether the auspistice is acting (or at least, is supposed to be acting according to societal mores) out of hate or pity for the other two parties. You could consider it a form of black romance only because of the feelings between the would-be kismeses, and the auspistice pities them/one of them enough that they'd be willing to coax them to be honest about their feelings. Or you could consider that the auspistice is also a little in hate with their main auspistice partner. Kind of like 'it frustrates me so deeply that you'd jeopardise yourself and your other relationships this way, I'm sorting this out and you will listen to me RIGHT THE FUCK NOW OR I TAKE YOUR FACE OFF mostly platonically'. The fic A Hand in Holding Hands, which is focused on ... auspisticeshipping (what would you call it? auspisticitude????) theorised that it could have a D/s kind of satisfaction.

Canon used the Tavros-Vriska-Kanaya mess as an example of an ashen relationship, which is why I think that interaction between Tavros and Kanaya might show what an auspistice does. I assume that they'd be interested in their partners' welfare beyond the immediate act of 'cockblocking imminent', because there must be some kind of bond that would convince them to get involved in the first place.

But yeah, this is all assumption. It could well be that Kanaya helping out Tavros was the friendship-orientated bugging/fussing/meddling, but I think it's too unclear to really say.

The mental image of bear Vriska patting sulkily at Tavros's unmoving form should not be this funny. I need more sleep.

I think their interaction preceded Hussie deciding to have the final quadrant, so I'd take it with a grain of salt. And Kanaya is referred to as a meddler and her interactions with Tavros seem more in line with pale behavior. (And going on the idea she was less than sincere, it was quite similar to giving Eridan the wand when she certainly wasn't in an ashen quadrant with him.) If she was supposed to be ashen and that's how she should behave toward someone ashen, I would expect less comments about her being unusually prone to meddling.

Personally, I think the ashen thing was most likely a past issue. It also shows Vriska-Eridan-Kanaya and there's no sign either of them thought they were currently ashen by the time of the game. Kanaya liked mediated during the breakup, and tried to block Tavros-Vriska as soon as Vriska showed an interest by crippling him, because unhealthy, but wasn't currently doing so because she was busy moirailing Vriska while trying to convince herself and everyone she wasn't flushed.

Kanaya's also called the village two-wheeled device when it comes to auspisticing, though, so it could well be that meddling is considered part of being an auspistice.

Good point. You're making me reconsider my opinions, now.

What above anon said -- and I do think there's a difference between aging up characters for porn and forgetting that, in canon, they're just kids. Like I said, there's a chance that some of the characters could grow up to be terrible people, with their current track record! I don't mind them being written as older and still doing bad things/having terrible opinions. But the automatic assumption a lot of people has that some of them are horrible, completely unredeemable, could never change and deserve to die (or worse) at such a young age bugs me.

Also, I'm not a fan of porn while the characters are underage, but since sometimes kids that age do have sex, I can't say it's entirely inaccurate to imagine they might. It skeeves me when they're not aged up, but I just ignore it and my not liking it doesn't mean it's inherently OOC; it's not a characterization problem, per se.

Oh yeah, definitely. I'd actually tie Equius and Eridan for being the most hemospectrum-obsessed of the highbloods (Eridan doesn't act like it constantly in the way Equius does, but he is the one of them that was/is flat-out genocidal towards all trolls that aren't sea-dwellers besides possibly his friends-group), and maybe Sollux as the most obsessed of the low-bloods (in a negative way; during his bad times, IIRC, he seems to dwell on being so low-blooded at least a little) -- or Karkat, who's ashamed of his "mutant blood."

Equius and Aradia's relationship, at the very least from a human standpoint, was definitely gross as hell. IMO, Equius was being a dumbass more than anything; he convinced himself he loved someone he didn't even know anything about. He thought she was pretty and was probably more in love with the idea of a)"helping" her by giving her a robotic body and incidentally "improving" her by giving her his superior blood color! and b)the scandal of being attracted to someone of such a low blood color in the first place. He was in love with the idea of loving her for two completely opposing reasons and, yeah, he never stopped to think about what she might want at all, which was definitely shitty of him.

And yeah, I definitely wouldn't characterize him as innocent or the woobie in the relationship or anything! I actually don't really like the pairing, not because it's abusive (at the more recent canon points I don't think it necessarily was, though it started out with Equius trying to pull something that WOULD have been scary-abusive), but because neither of them would get what they want out of it. Equius doesn't actually love Aradia, imo, and Aradia doesn't love him so they wouldn't be able to have a functioning matespritship, and Aradia seems to hate Equius at this point but IMO he isn't capable of having a kismessitude with her. Their relationship kind of inherently sucks, at least as it stands now. I do like to think that Equius could improve (or, well, could have improved) and was even starting to, but in the end he hadn't improved enough for his bigotry not to fuck both him and, unintentionally, Nepeta over completely.

I think you're talking about an auspicitising between something that's hearts or spades, but that doesn't make sense, an auspicitice would mean they're moved out of those quadrants into the ashen one, and the stated reason for the ashen quadrant is just to prevent you from having two kismesis at the same time, so presumably if your current kismesis dies you'd sometimes shift the ashen feud over into black.

Um, I'm not though? I mean it could be a possibility, like A mediating between her ashen partner B and B's ex-matesprit C so that, even though it was a terrible messy breakup, B and C can still work together without tearing each others' throats out. Or B auspicitises for A and his black crush D to facilitate a real kismesiship between the two, at which point D would break off from the triad and into A's black quadrant. Cockblocking is obviously one of the main functions but I don't think it is practical for it to be the only one? What would the auspistice get out of holding a budding kismesiship in reserve just in case the actual kismesis croaks? How would that be satisfying for the others involved? Nor is it practical for it to be unchanging over a very long period of time.

Also I think it is possible that, since the relationship is actually a pair annd the third wheel is sort of an open slot, multiple triads can be formed simultaneously and I guess a person from one ashen relationship may end up as a third wheel in someone else's. A mediates between B and C at the same time B mediates between A and D; A also mediates between B and E and F mediates between her ashen partner G and A. Having a big network might not be common but they would exist if the people involved are social enough.

Eridan certainly hopes that if he does good enough with an ashen relationship they'll go fully black for him, so I'd guess it's no more looked down upon than people look down on the idea of getting a relationship by being friends first.

And I think clubs = matchmaker is the wrong way to look at it. They're more like the anti-matchmaker. Just like some people really like hooking people up, some trolls really like keeping unsuited people apart.

But... if it is acceptable if you begin with an ashen link with someone and then having it develop into a black relationship... isn't the auspistice playing matchmaker?

I'm mostly saying that it is much broader than simple cockblocking. They are basically catalysts--they help repair, break down and form relationships between their partner and the wildcard third person. A moirail doesn't do any of that, moirallegiance is only about the partner. They are interested in how you think and feel about others, and they are there to listen, console and swat you down when you're being dumb, but they don't make anything happen; that's a task left up to you and possibly your ashen love, if you've got one.

There was a discussion really early on in this meme about how troll society works and someone said something about it being very tribal in nature--I think that works. Auspistice relationships might have evolved to keep the peace between tribes, while moirallegiance evolved to keep the peace between individuals in the same tribe. Inconstant and multiple third wheels makes sense in this context because they would have had to keep tabs on more than one at a time. It was also said interest in black and ashen relationships typically comes later than red and pale which might be explained by small juvenile groups not really having a need for inter-tribe go betweens and politics; the problems people need auspistices for are things adults with greatly expanded social circles have, not a tiny band of 12.

But that's not what one does. They are absolutely not supposed to facilitate kismesissitude. Their job is to keep people from infidelity. If a concupiscent relationship is bad, they're supposed to drag it into the auspistice quadrant and calm everyone's passions so the troll's quadrant is free for a healthy relationship instead. If a relationship is good but there's already a kismesis, they're supposed to prevent cheating on the kismesis.

When two trolls are locked in a feud or some otherwise contentious relationship, one can intervene and become their AUSPISTICE. The auspistice mediates between the two, playing the role of a peace keeper, preventing the feud from boiling over into a fully caliginous rivalry.

Since such lesser feuds are quite common among trolls, there is a significant need for auspisticing parties. Without them, too many ashen feuds would become caliginous, and begin to conflict with other exclusive kismesis relationships, leading to a great deal of social complexity and sore feelings (even more so than black romance usually involves). Without auspisticism, the result would be widespread black infidelity.

As to what they get out of cockblocking, what do people get out of matchmaking?

I'm not sure what you're arguing with me about here because I'm pretty sure you are saying the same things I am saying? None of your points are conflicting with mine??

You even brought up Eridan trying to angle for black relationships by having an auspistice mediate their feud and said it seemed to be an average/legitimate pathway to getting a kismesis (which is honestly something I forgot to mention in the first post so thanks for that), how's that not facilitating anything???

It's just the other side of the coin. An auspisticed formation of a relationship should be a very stable one, if the auspistice is good. That benefits the auspistice because he won't have to hear his partner yearn and bitch about how she's so alone, it benefits the partner because she gets a matesprit/moirail/kismesis out of it, it benefits the group as a whole because it means less bullshit romantic tension and confusion and more congruency. It's still a peacekeeping function.

And again, I don't think that's what a moirail does. I've seen that variation in fics a few times but it doesn't feel right? Neither Nepeta nor Equius made any moves to pair each other up with anyone else, and if it was a moirail duty she probably wouldn't have a shipping wall (that would be a bit weird and have shades of infidelity--it would be like having a boyfriend but keeping pictures of all your hot classmates plastered to your wall anyway). Feferi did ask Eridan if he liked anyone, but I don't think she would have made any attempts to hook him up with anybody if he confessed. Not beyond "O)( my GOS)( you s)(ould totally go for it!!!" or "UM, t)(at is pretty much T)(-E WORST ID-EA," anyway.

I agree with all of this 100%.

DA

Sorry, but no. Wilful blindness IS a form of ignorance, and the only reason Equius didn't know more about Aradia was because he didn't care to look into it. He wanted his fetishized lowblood fantasy.

I love that people are sneering and saying that all AUs are intrinsically about OCs.

Can characters be badly mangled to the point that they have absolutely zero resemblance to the canon characters they're "based" on? Well, yeah. Of course. That's bad AU writing. But I'm sorry, if you think that changing a few details about a canon character, the setting, and maybe their name will give you an OC, then I really hope you never write OCs. Swiping a character almost wholesale from another work and trying to disguise it as your own is cheap as hell and is not actually what an OC is.

If the character has internal logic, personality, etc. of the character from canon and is recognizable as them, even if their circumstances and some aspects of them have changed, then they're not an OC. If you think they are, y'all are not cut out for writing original fiction.

This is a good post, thank you for writing it.